Conducted by Linda Cameron, April 1, 2008 in Richfield, Minnesota
LC = Linda Cameron
CF = Carolyn Frederick
LC: Carolyn, please state your full name.
CF: My name is Carolyn Elaine Johnson Frederick.
LC: When and where were you born?
CF: I was born in Graceville, Minnesota. My parents lived in Chokio, a very small town. Graceville was the nearest hospital and that's where I was born.
LC: What date were you born?
CF: My birth date is 9/22/25.
LC: What were your parents' names?
CF: My dad was named Henry Johnson but he did not know his name as Henry. He was known as Bud forever and ever. My mother's name was Olga Pederson Johnson. Of course they lived in Chokio.
LC: Were they from Minnesota originally?
CF: Yes that was their home. My dad worked in the creamery in Chokio.
LC: What was his job there?
CF: I think he was just general everything in the creamery in Chokio. They took in milk and cream from area farmers and also made butter.
LC: OK.
CF: He would have been pretty much just out of school and that was his job.
LC: Where did you go to school?
CF: I was born in Graceville and when I was probably three, we moved to Watson, Minnesota. The total population was 200. My dad was the manager of the creamery there and we lived right across the road. I went to Watson school from first grade through 8th grade, and then I took a bus to Montevideo to Junior High and to Senior High.
LC: OK. What year did you graduate then from High School?
CF: 1943.
LC: Did you go on to college?
CF: I came to Minneapolis and went to college for probably one year, to Minneapolis Business College.
LC: What kind of courses did you take?
CF: Accounting.
LC: Your husband's name is Donald S. Frederick.
CF: True.
LC: Where is he from originally?
CF: He is from Albert Lea, Minnesota.
LC: OK, we'll come back to Don in just a minute. Talk a little bit about life during the Depression for your family. What was it like for you guys?
CF: I think I didn't realize there was a depression. It wasn't discussed. I now think we didn't have much, but I didn't know that at the time. We had a lot of laughter in our family. My dad had a good sense of humor and we just had a really nice home life.
LC: Did you have siblings growing up?
CF: Yes. There were five of us: four girls and one boy.
LC: Wow! Your dad was employed during the whole Depression?
CF: Yes, he was, because he was the manager of the Creamery, and then he… I believe it would have been in 1943; he went to Alaska and worked on the Alcan Highway.
LC: Really?
CF: I believe he was gone almost two years.
LC: I didn't know that. That's interesting. Did any of the kids in your family work during the Depression?
CF: My sister, Mavis, worked at Northern States Power Company in Montevideo. When I was a senior in high school, I worked at the Security Bank in Montevideo. I had been doing some of the bookkeeping for the Creamery in Watson. Mostly adding figures up and down, milk runs in and out and doing that type of thing. One of the farm people who came worked in the bank in Montevideo and she told them that I knew how to add figures, so they hired me when I was in high school. I was not looking for a job. I moved from "home" in Watson to a room in a home in Montevideo with my sister, Mavis.
LC: Oh, that's nice. You mentioned that you came to the cities, and [that] you took some business classes in the cities. Did you come to Minneapolis specifically to go to school or did you just want to come to the city?
CF: I just wanted to come to the city. We thought Montevideo was certainly the sticks and we couldn't get out of there fast enough. So I really just wanted to come to the city. Of course I went to Minneapolis on the Greyhound bus. I went to the Federal Reserve Bank and was hired that day.
LC: OK. Now let's talk a little bit about life during the war. Do you remember where you were when you first heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor? You would have still been in high school.
CF: I was at home listening to the news on the little white kitchen radio. It seemed as if Pearl Harbor was far away. Did I need to be concerned about it?
LC: It didn't make an impression, then.
CF: It did not make much of an impression except it seemed like the senior boys talked about it. "Should we join the Army? What do you think?" There was that kind of talk but it did not affect me personally. It seemed it did not.
LC: How old was your brother during this time? Was he older than you?
CF: He is four years younger.
LC: Oh, so he wouldn't have been affected.
CF: No, he was not affected.
LC: OK. What was your parents' response? Do you remember talking about the war at home? Listening to the radio?
CF: No, I do not. I do not remember them talking about it. I think probably because there were five of us and we were such a giggly family and you know we could make a joke out of nothing. So when my parents wanted to talk about something serious they would go into the kitchen and say, "Go outside and play." Then they would talk but we didn't care what they were talking about. It didn't involve us. We didn't think it involved us.
LC: Did you have any other relatives that fought in the war?
CF: I don't believe so. My Dad belonged to the Home Guard. He wore a uniform and went to meetings.
LC: No cousins or uncles or…
CF: No, I do not remember that.
LC: OK. Where did you live during the war? You were at home until 1943, and then you came to the cities?
CF: Yes, and then I came to the cities and I lived briefly, probably two months with an aunt and uncle. I went directly to their house and stayed there for a couple months and then I was looking for a place to live. I saw an ad in the paper, I believe, for 2535 Park [Avenue]. I walked over there. It actually was well over two miles. I didn't think it was a terrible distance. I walked over there and they told me there was a room available, so I took it, and I walked back.
LC: Do you remember how much you had to pay for it?
CF: Forty dollars comes to mind. You know I want to say that was for a month but that does not sound like it can be possible.
LC: No it wouldn't, it probably would have been less than that wouldn't it?
CF: Forty is the amount I'm thinking but I'm thinking could that be a week?
LC: No it couldn't be. You probably only made $160 a month. Well maybe it was a month then – ten dollars a week. I'll bet that's right.
CF: Oh, yes. I would say so.
LC: OK so about ten dollars a week.
CF: And that was for the room and a dinner at night and breakfast. You could make your own breakfast with their food. It was a really nice dinner at night; well prepared – meat, potatoes, vegetable and, of course, dessert.
LC: How big was this boarding house?
CF: I remember that there were probably forty girls there. It was called Park Avenue Girls' Club, not a "boarding house". Today, year 2008, it is Thomson Dougherty Historic Mansion Funeral Home. It has been a funeral home for many years.
LC: It's a big house.
CF: Yes, but there were a lot of us in a room. I lived over the garage and we thought that was the exclusive spot. There were two rooms up there and a bathroom and there were three of us in each room. There was a tunnel to get to the main house so we didn't have to walk outside. In the basement I think there might have been eight girls living down there in a dormitory style. The rest probably had three per room. There were a lot of rooms there.
LC: Were all the girls "career girls"?
CF: Yes, though some were waiting for their husbands to return home from Service. We all had jobs.
LC: Did you live there while you were going to school, too, or just while you were working?
CF: Both, because I was working and going to school. I took some night school classes.
LC: How long did you stay in the boarding house, then?
CF: I moved there in 1943 and I was there until I got married in '46.
LC: OK. You mentioned that you got a meal there. It was Mrs. Frederick that had the house. Did she have staff that prepared the meals?
CF: Yes she did have staff – Clara and Jenny at that time – and they helped her prepare meals. They were very good – meat and potatoes and dessert kinds of meals. They prepared the meals and served them in the dining room. We all ate together for dinner but not for breakfast. We each bought our own "lunch" food and kept our food in the main pantry and made our own bag lunches.
LC: So you had specific times when you would be expected to be in the dining room.
CF: Right. Unless we had signed out on the blackboard that we would be gone – or going to have a guest. We could invite a guest to dinner. I don't recall any of the girls ever having a "male" guest.
LC: Did you help with chores? Did the girls help with cleanup or anything like that?
CF: I don't remember that we did. The beds and towels were changed once a week but the maids did that. I don't remember that we did anything except personal laundry. We made our own beds each morning to keep our room neat. If we "forgot" the maids made the bed.
LC: That was my next question: if there was maid service, too. That's really nice.
CF: There was. In the years I lived there, there were often new faces on the staff but always efficient and friendly.
LC: OK. Did the war change your activities or habits in any way? I know there were shortages and salvaging and…
CF: Oh, there definitely were shortages. I think I didn't realize them while I was living there because I was not the cook. But then when Don and I were married in '46, then we could see, you know, there was a shortage of sugar and shortening. Probably the two things I remember the most. We had ration books. I remember we would talk about how long it would be before we could get sugar. I liked to bake so had to plan ahead.
LC: So you each had your ration books. You must have shared your ration books with the cooks in order to supply the food?
CF: You know I don't remember that. I don't know if we had them at that time, if they were required of us at that time. I just remember after we got married that we had to have them in order to get food. It was also difficult to get nylons. We had to have coupons for them.
LC: Do you remember when things started to loosen up a little bit on the shortages, and you were able to finally buy things without coupons, and buy quantities of things that you wanted? Did it take long after the war ended?
CF: It seems like it was at least two years. We became so used to the shortages that they were just a way of life I think. You were just glad for when it was your time to get something.
LC: Was it difficult to cook?
CF: Well, I was a new cook. [Laughter] Yes, it was difficult to cook. Don was not hard to please. He made delicious macaroni and cheese at least twice or more a week.
LC: [Laughter] I would think Don would be easy to please, after being in a POW camp.
CF: He just said, "I don't want any cabbage and I don't want any potatoes." Those were the only two things that he didn't want. They were prison camp food. Potatoes were my favorite food so of course we had to have potatoes. He finally started thinking they were food.
LC: [Laughter] Let me ask a little bit more about the house. Did the girls in the house have sort of a social atmosphere? Did you do things together? If so, what kinds of activities…?
CF: I would say we did. The upstairs-in-the-garage girls, we probably did things together. I believe three of the ladies were married. So when their husbands came home on leave, of course they did their own thing. The rest of us were single and we would go downtown. Do you remember the Covered Wagon? Have you ever heard of the Covered Wagon?
LC: No.
CF: It was a very nice bar and restaurant. We would go to the Covered Wagon on the streetcar and go home on the streetcar. So we did go downtown. That was about what we did, I guess.
LC: Do you remember what a night out on the town would cost in those days for you working girls?
CF: I have no idea. I do not know. We did not take a cab; we rode on the streetcar. We did have to watch our time as some streetcars stopped running at 11:00 p.m.
LC: Do you remember what your salary was?
CF: I was just trying to think. I don't know what my salary was.
LC: OK. Going back to the girls at the house…you mentioned some of them were married and had husbands in the service. I imagine there were quite a few with boyfriends in the service, as well.
CF: Yes, there were. I was one of them; I was engaged. We later broke up, when I met Don. I gave my diamond back.
LC: Do you remember any times when they got very, very bad news? When telegrams would come saying they had been wounded or were missing or… I imagine Mrs. Frederick had… you know she got the notices when Donald…
CF: She did get notices of Don and his brother Dale (I did not know Don at this time), but I do not remember any sobbing and carrying on amongst the ladies. No, I don't remember that they happened to get really bad news. Most of the talk was about when their husband or boyfriend would be coming home.
LC: That's good. Getting back to entertainment, did you go to movies during the war?
CF: Yes, we went to movies a lot, to the Rialto Theater on Lake Street, a small local theater.
LC: Do you remember any films in particular that you…?
CF: I do not, but we would walk down there, which was – I don't know – six, seven, or eight blocks. We saw a lot of movies down there.
LC: Did you travel at all during the war? Did you take the train anywhere – go on any trips?
CF: I don't believe so.
LC: I know the government wanted people to not travel too much because the railroads and such were reserved pretty much for the military troops. Now getting into the work situation. You worked for General Mills during the war, is that correct?
CF: Right.
LC: Did you get that job right out of business school, then?
CF: I first went to First National Bank because I had been working at a bank in Montevideo. I went to First National Bank when I came from Montevideo and applied for a job and I did not get it. They told me they had no openings for me. So I just walked across the street and went to the Federal Reserve Bank and went in there and applied and they hired me immediately. Then First National Bank called me. By the time I got home they had called and said they would like me to start tomorrow.
LC: [Laughter]
CF: I said, "I'm sorry, I have a job." So I worked at the Federal Reserve Bank and from there I went to General Mills.
LC: So you were at General Mills when you got married?
CF: Yes.
LC: Oh, I didn't realize that. OK. What was your job at the Federal Reserve Bank?
CF: I don't remember my job title… It was proofing. It seemed that banks around the state would send in their lists of checks with the checks and it was proofing checks. I can't remember right now what that was called. It was done by hand, so to speak, instead of by computer, like today. Much of the work was done on adding machines.
LC: You don't remember what your salary was at that time..?
CF: I don't.
LC: OK. You were with the Federal Reserve Bank until some time in 1946?
CF: I think I quit there before that. I would say anyway early '45 that I went to General Mills.
LC: OK. What kind of training were you given at General Mills? Did they give you any kind of indoctrination?
CF: I don't recall that there was. I'm trying to think just what my job was there and… I think whatever I was doing I didn't need any new training for. We had, I was going to say computers but that's not the right word.
LC: Like adding machines or…
CF: Yes, but...I want to say calculator but that doesn't sound right either.
LC: [Laughter]
CF: What were they called? Comptometer [a mechanical adding machine]!
LC: Oh! OK.
CF: We had comptometers and I was fairly proficient at that, so that's what I got to do. I had taken a class at Minneapolis Business College on Comptometers.
LC: What exactly was your daily routine like? Do you remember?
CF: It seemed to me it was all paperwork, checking figures that came in from their different offices all over – checking whether the adding and subtracting were correct.
LC: Did your work change at all during the war? Did you feel that the war impacted the kind of work you were doing at all? I know General Mills had a defense plant, too.
CF: I don't believe it did where I was.
LC: OK. Where did you work? Were you downtown?
CF: Yes, on Fifth and Marquette.
LC: What did you like and dislike about your job? Do you remember anything specific?
CF: I don't remember disliking anything. I liked the people so much that I guess I thought every day was fun and I just liked the people I was working with and we did a lot of laughing, and hopefully some working. [Laughter]
LC: [Laughter]
CF: I don't remember disliking anything about the job. I sometimes filled in as the Receptionist, also.
LC: OK. I'm assuming that you made some pretty good friends among the other girls that were there.
CF: Oh, Yes. After 60-plus years many names pop right out as I recall my General Mills friends.
LC: I bet there were quite a few young ones that were working there.
CF: Yes. Most of us were right out of Business School, or taking classes. Some had been there five years or more. Yes, and we were friends forever. One is still my friend. The others have died or moved away.
LC: Do you remember specifically products that you might have been connected with in the work you were doing – General Mills products?
CF: No, I don't. I worked in Statistics. We did not handle food products.
LC: OK. Now, going on to life after the war…where were you and what were you doing when you heard about the surrender of Germany? Do you remember?
CF: I do not remember.
LC: How about the end of the war when Japan surrendered in August of '45?
CF: Well, I remember the war was over, but you know, I have to really think. Did we celebrate? Was it wonderful?
LC: I would imagine that, at the Girls' Club, there must have been some real happy folks.
CF: Yes, because their husbands and boyfriends were coming home. I don't recall there was a whole lot of celebration. It was just "the war is over." For some, it meant apartment hunting and moving if a husband was coming home.
LC: Uh hmm. Was it hard to believe the news?
CF: I don't think so. We all lived with "What will we do when…" "The war" was secondary to "What's next? Marriage? Moving?" "The War" was "over there."
LC: I suppose by then everybody was pretty much expecting it.
CF: Yes!
LC: Do you remember hearing about the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
CF: I remember hearing about it. I think that I thought it was really awful that we did that – that there must have been a more humane way. War seemed far away. There were no bombs in Minneapolis…
LC: How soon did things return to normal for you after the war? You mentioned the rationing kind of held on…the shortages held on for a couple of years post war.
CF: I think it hung on for a couple of years. I think we were just so busy living and going to work that I don't think we thought that things were changing. It was just like today. Life just changes and you don't even notice it unless it's a big change.
LC: Uh hmm. Now, will you share the story of how you met Don?
CF: [Laughter] Yes. When I lived at the Girls' Club, as we called it, I was engaged to a Navy corpsman. While all of the excitement of "my boyfriend's coming home" or "my husband's coming" passed me by in a sense because I had a boyfriend. I wasn't out looking for dates. So that was not important to me when we went downtown carousing, I was not looking for dates. So I think probably when I met Don – I'd heard about him, of course, from his sister, Bev, who lived there also. She was a real good friend of all the girls. So she would come up to our rooms and she'd tell us what was happening with Don and with Dale, her two brothers. They were both in Service.
LC: It was their mother that owned the boarding house.
CF: Right. We all called her "Mrs. Fred" (for "Frederick"). So you know we knew about Don, particularly, but I was not interested in him. When he came home it was fun to see this man that we'd been hearing about. I remember thinking, "My, he's a handsome man." But I don't recall that he particularly talked to me right away, or I to him. Don's mother, who owned the Girls' Club, had sort of singled out Marian [one of the girls living in the house] that she thought was the one for him. So I just figured that was life. OK with me. It didn't matter.
LC: You've written down here that you met Don on July 23rd, 1945.
CF: Yes. I think probably we just started talking, and I guess I thought he enjoyed talking with me because I was not interested in him romantically. Some of the girls living there were hoping he'd notice them. We just talked about the war, the week, or the food, or the whatever. So I think probably he was very comfortable. He didn't like to do a lot of talking but he was very comfortable because I was not pursuing him. I was engaged.
LC: Do you remember when you started dating?
CF: I think he asked me if I would want to go downtown to a movie and I was engaged and I didn't see it as going on a date. He just wanted to go to a movie and I said, "Sure." We walked downtown, which you know was well over two miles. He did not have wheels. We just got along really well so we would go to another movie and another movie and then I realized that we just really enjoyed each other. I wrote to [my fiancé], who was in the Service, and told him I had met somebody. (I guess at that time such a letter was called a "Dear John" letter.) Of course, he told his mother and she had a fit and wrote me a letter and told me how awful I [was] for hurting her son.
LC: Oh no!
CF: Which it did. I didn't want to hurt him; he was a very nice person. I had gone with him in high school and we were engaged, you know, right after high school. So it was a tough time that way. I waited until [he] came home on leave and we talked about it, and he did not agree that it was a good thing but I thought it was the way to go. Yes, I returned my engagement ring to him.
LC: You had made up your mind.
CF: Yes.
LC: Now you guys were married when? You were engaged May 23rd, 1946.
CF: We were married September 14th, 1946. Now that seems like a short engagement. So much to do!
LC: Where were you married?
CF: Our Savior's Lutheran Church on 23rd and Chicago Avenue in Minneapolis. It was close to the Girls' Club and I was a member there. My mother made my long white wedding dress and a friend made my veil. When I look at the pictures I realize my dress was a little big for me. I thought it was lovely!
LC: Your reception was held…
CF: It was held where I was living, 2535 Park Avenue, in Minneapolis.
LC: At the Girls' Club.
CF: Yes. You know it was a big house, and "Mrs. Fred," as we all called her, had a lot of dishes and she said, "Do you want to have the reception here?" My folks lived in Montevideo at the time and that wasn't real easy for them, but it worked. I think now Don's mother probably did a lot of the work because it was her house. So our reception was at 2535 Park Avenue in Minneapolis.
LC: Did a lot of the girls that you lived with come?
CF: Oh yes. I posted an open invitation.
LC: So you guys were married in September. Where did you live after you were married?
CF: 1300 Powderhorn Park in Minneapolis.
LC: How long were you there?
CF: A year and a half, maybe.
LC: So you were working at General Mills at the time. Did you get a honeymoon? Did they give you a leave of absence so you could take a honeymoon?
CF: Did we? Yes, we went someplace. [Laughter] I took vacation time and Don was in the process of being discharged from the army so he didn't have a job yet.
LC: [Laughter]
CF: Yes we went up to Canada.
LC: You lived in Minneapolis for a while after you were married. You were at General Mills. What did Don choose to do after the war? What was his career field?
CF: When he came home he went back to work with a friend of his who owned a hardware store on Lake Street. Don had worked there before, so Larry wanted him to come back and work with him and considered that he should be buying in – that they were going to be partners. Don worked there, and then he decided to go on the road for Janney, Semple, Hill and Company and sold hardware on the road. He traveled in Minnesota and Iowa. We moved to Iowa and this hardware store came up for sale in Algona [Iowa], a small town of about 6,000 people, and he decided, "This is it." We bought the store in 1959.
LC: Did you continue to work at General Mills until you moved, then?
CF: I believe I did. I worked in their statistical department on 5th and Marquette
LC: You have how many kids?
CF: Well we didn't have any for a couple of years and then we had Linda in 1949, John in 1950, and Jane in 1962 after we moved to Iowa.
LC: OK, so all three kids were born in Iowa, then.
CF: Yes. We were barely moved into an apartment in Algona when Linda was born.
LC: Did you return to work once the kids were in school?
CF: I did. In fact, I started working before they were in school full time. I worked part time as a Bookkeeper at a Drug store. They were friends, so they didn't care if I worked at night, or in the morning, or noon, or if I came to the store, or took it home. So it was easy for me. I also worked as the Bookkeeper at Frederick Hardware after we bought that store. We owned Frederick Hardware in Algona, Iowa for twelve years.
LC: How long were you guys there in Algona?
CF: Twenty-two years.
LC: Is that when you moved to Richfield?
CF: Yes.
LC: So that would have been... What year did you come to Richfield?
CF: 1971.
LC: So you came back to Minnesota in 1971. What brought Don back? What caused you to move back to Minnesota?
CF: I think because Larry, a friend at Grape's Hardware store on Lake Street, and Don had talked about buying in together. Larry's relatives owned the store and he said, "Why don't you and I buy in and we will be together." Actually Don thought that was a good idea, but we didn't have the money to buy half of a store. So Don said, "I'll come up there and work and let's see what works out." So that's what we did. It didn't work out for us to buy in with Larry. The store closed. Then Don went to Shoop Hardware and started working there.
LC: You live in the same house that you moved to when you first moved back?
CF: Yes, we bought this house. We lived with Don's mother for a few weeks while we were house hunting. We looked at many homes before we found an affordable house in the area we wanted.
LC: What was the neighborhood like when you first moved in, in the seventies? Has it changed very much over the years?
CF: I think there were a lot of families with young children just like we had. Some houses were not here. I think it was a neighborhood of young families. It was close to a school and a church, which was important to us. I don't recall that it was overly friendly. Everyone worked.
LC: How old were your kids when you moved back? Do you remember?
CF: Linda was a working girl in Minneapolis, John was in college, and Jane was in 4th grade.
LC: Are your kids all married?
CF: Yes. Our three kids are all married. They married wonderful people. We are so lucky.
LC: Do they have kids of their own now?
CF: Yes, Linda and Tom have two boys who are married, Jane and Dan have two young boys, and John and wife, Linda, have no children. We are blessed with two Lindas.
LC: Do you have great grandkids?
CF: Yes. I have to think. Linda's son, Steven, has a daughter. So we have a great-granddaughter, Sara. Jane's boys are still in school.
LC: College?
CF: No they would be in grade school. There was a gap of thirteen years before we were lucky enough to have our third child. We were ecstatic when Jane came along.
LC: Do the kids live close by?
CF: Jane, a stay-at-home mom, and her husband, Dan, and boys live in Belmont, Massachusetts right outside of Boston; John and his wife live in Rolla, Missouri, where he is a fifth grade Biology teacher and his wife, Linda, is a medical technician at the hospital. Daughter Linda and her husband Tom live in Ramsey, so they are fairly close. Their boys and families also live in Ramsey.
LC: Now I am going to ask some questions about the lessons and legacy of your generation. Your generation lived through both the Great Depression and the Second World War. Then you went on to help build a prosperous Minnesota in the post war years and beyond. Looking back, what impact did the depression and the world war have, do you think, on your generation, and if you had to give some advice to the younger generation, what would that advice be?
CF: I think the war caused people to grow up quickly and to realize our country needs each of us to be a helpful person. I guess I feel like our generation was not all for themselves like I see it now. I think we were geared to trying to help each other.
LC: What kind of advice would you give if you could pass on just one value that you feel is really important? Something you learned from that time frame to share with the next generation. What would that be? What values were important for you to share with your kids?
CF: I guess honesty is the main thing – honesty and try to be helpful. Life isn't all about ME!
LC: It sounds like Don has a really strong work ethic, and you, too.
CF: Yes. Yes, I think we both have, because you had to be that way, and I think that's good. I don't think we expected the world to hand us anything. We expected to work for what we got and we didn't mind. That was all right.
LC: When you came back to Minnesota, did you work here?
CF: Yes, I worked at the school and then I worked at House of Prayer Lutheran Church as their bookkeeper for fifteen years. We went to church there and I was just visiting with whoever was there. Their bookkeeper had left the job and just in chatting I said, "Oh we just moved here from Iowa and I was a bookkeeper there." They just landed all over me and I said, "No, I'm all through working. I have retired. I'm not going to work." But then they called and asked if I would just come and help out for a couple weeks. I said, "Oh I guess I can do that." So I was there fifteen years.
LC: Wow! [Laughter] So when did you finally retire, Carolyn – or haven't you?
CF: Yes I have. Oh boy I don't even know if I can put a year on it when I finally retired. Was it '87? Then I was approached by a friend at Loaves & Fishes, too. Their bookkeeper had left. I worked there about 5 years. I finally retired.
LC: When did Don retire?
CF: I should know that, but I don't. He retired before I did. I don't remember when he retired, because he retired and then he went down to the hardware store and helped out just weekends. I don't know if I can give you any date that he retired.
LC: Have you spent time traveling and things during your retirement?
CF: No. Which we always said we were going to do. And that is a big mistake that we did not do that. We were talking about it just a couple days ago that we did not do that and that we'd looked forward to this time in our lives to do that. He said, "Well we couldn't afford to do it to start with." We didn't have money. I don't know that we felt deprived. It was just the way life is. Don did a lot of fishing and hunting. I like to kid him now because my memory's getting better now. He went every year on a fishing trip for a week or so and a hunting trip for a week and I stayed home with the kids and I now say, "Can you imagine how dumb I was?"
LC: [Laughter]
CF: I said, "Can you imagine that? I just stayed home and you thought that I was having a vacation. He just kind of laughed and said, "Well I guess so, I don't know. I just went." I said, "Yes, you did." [Laughter]
Oh, we did take one nice trip to visit Don's Grandma in Long Beach, California. The Rose Bowl Parade happened to be on then. His Grandma, in her 80s, got us up in the middle of the night to go to the Parade. We stood curbside for hours, but it was worth it. (Grandma drove, and she was stopped for speeding.)
LC: [Laughter]
CF: But Don did hunt and fish, so I think he had ample vacation.
LC: Do you belong to women's groups of any kind?
CF: Not particularly. I have belonged to a Bridge Club.
LC: Was that here, or in Iowa?
CF: Both. That kind of petered out as people moved. I have belonged to groups at church. I've been active at church. I enjoyed singing in the choir.
LC: Were there other activities that you were engaged in?
CF: No.
LC: You didn't go bowling?
CF: No, I did not. I went bowling a few times and I don't think they'd want me back.
LC: [Laughter]
CF: I did not particularly like bowling. I like to go to concerts and things of that nature, but bowling wasn't one of my things.
LC: It seems like such a Richfield sort of thing to do. [Laughter]
CF: Yes. Yes, that's true.
LC: Can you think of any other stories you'd like to share – any good memories?
BREAK IN INTERVIEW
LC: We were just talking about how so many of the women that we talked to for this project worked during the war in some capacity and then instead of going back to the kitchen in the 1950's as we all think the stereotypical woman did of that period, many of you worked.
CF: I think many of us worked because it was a need or maybe we were wanting more things that I suppose we could live without, but you could not have them unless both of you worked.
LC: What kinds of things? Can you remember? I know [that in] the '50s, especially, manufactures were finally able to get the materials to create more cars and more appliances and those kinds of things. There were a lot of laborsaving devices that came out. Were there things in particular that you guys really wanted to get for your home right after you were married?
CF: I don't recall that there was. I think we were not used to extras, either one of us. We figured, "Some day, we'll have that." I don't know what those things are at the present time. It did not materialize. It was not the end of the world for either of us. We just lived with what we had, and we thought we were lucky to have what we had.
LC: Think about your clothes closet from the 1940s and '50s, and think about your closet today. What's the difference?
CF: Well I would say I would take my 1950s closet to my closet today. [Laughter] My closet today is desperation. I forget that I can go to the store and buy something new and I just put the same old thing on. Which is totally wrong. I should not do that. Back then I think we were probably socializing more and I was working and the need for clothes was different than it is now.
When I was growing up my mother made almost all of our clothes. I remember fondly my tan winter coat she made for me in 9th grade. She didn't always have a pattern. She laid the fabric on the dining room table and started to cut. We had nice clothes.
I think one thing that was a real biggie in our family was when nylons came in. (These were not "pantyhose," but nylon stockings worn with garter belts.) I have a sister two years older and Mavis could have nylons first. Of course they always got runners in them. She would say, "Look at that beaut." Everything was "a beaut". "Now there's a beaut." She'd be wearing these nylons with runners all over them or patched and we thought they were pretty neat. But I do remember the nylons were a really big thing to be able to buy. As a working girl, I would usually buy them at Donaldson's store on Nicollet, or Powers, which was close to General Mills where I worked. We needed coupons for nylons.
LC: Do you remember when those came in? [Editor's note: nylon was developed by Dr. Wallace Hume Carothers at DuPont, and nylon stockings became available nationwide about 1940.] I know silk was at a premium during the war because they were using [it] for parachutes and everything else. So silk hose really were not available and I think nylon was developed kind of around that time wasn't it?
CF: Yes, somehow I want to put it like '43 or '44, somewhere in there. I remember nylons were also rationed so we had to have coupons for them. That was a big deal to be able to go down to Donaldson's store and get a new pair of nylons because they did not always have them and we did not always have the coupons to purchase them. That was a big deal.
LC: Did you mend them? Did you darn them when they ran?
CF: I hope I didn't just wear them with runners in them. [Laughter] That probably would not have been a preference. In the feet yes, oh most certainly; the feet were "mended".
LC: To make them last.
CF: Yes. We also patched a runner with a single thread especially if the run was above the knee so that your dress covered it.
LC: Do you remember clothing being kind of at a premium, too, though, during the war? Because I know dresses – things became more utilitarian and wool was at a premium because they were using it for uniforms. Did you have trouble getting "career girl" clothes to wear?
CF: Where I worked was just a couple blocks from Powers store downtown and that was our noon haunt to go there and see what was in and go to Donaldson's and see what we maybe could buy sometime. Nylons are what comes to me most. I don't remember what we wore but we didn't wear the same dress all week. We weren't of that persuasion.
LC: So you had a few changes of outfits.
CF: Yes, we had clothes. Clothes were important. A few women had started to wear slacks but I very definitely didn't do that, and certainly I didn't wear anything two days in a row.
LC: Now think about how your kids were raised and think about your childhood and compare the two. Think about the differences between the way you grew up during the Great Depression and the way your kids grew up in the '50s and '60s.
CF: I think probably I feel like I had it better.
LC: You had it better than your kids.
CF: I feel like we did, probably because that's what we knew and that's what we had. I think they became less satisfied and society said you had to have things. I don't think that was for the best, because that became true. You know they were looked down on if they didn't have some things. I don't think that happened to us. It seemed like everybody was kind of "frugal," or saving up for "wants". It was "normal."
LC: There's so much talk about the baby boom and how children were sort of pampered and they had lots of toys and they had lots of stuff. Was it true of your kids, too, when they were pretty little?
CF: They did have a lot of stuff because Don had two aunts in Albert Lea who did not have children and his mother was also very generous. We were living in Iowa at the time. They did give our kids lots of things, lots of toys or clothes – they'd see something that they'd think, "Oh boy, look at that. I've got to buy that for Linda." They did buy the kids a lot of clothes. I don't think they looked at it as need, they just thought it was fun because kids clothes were cute.
LC: Something they could do for the kids, too.
CF: Jane came along 12 years after the other two and didn't receive as much as the Aunts were no longer in "shopping mode". So I feel like our kids had more than they needed. We were grateful. I wonder if we realized how lucky we were. Especially financially.
LC: When you were raising your kids and starting out as a new mom, did you refer to things like Dr. Spock's Baby and Child Care book?
CF: Oh, every page, I knew every page.
LC: Really!
CF: He always agreed with me – or changed my mind!
LC: Was that pretty common among your friends, too? You used that as kind of a "bible" for raising your kids...?
CF: I think so. If he said so then it was gospel. I'm not sure now if my friends and I gave credit to Dr. Spock. We probably acted as if we knew all the answers.
LC: Wow!
CF: I still have that Dr. Spock book. Of course the cover is ill and some of the pages are loose, but I can look at that today and feel like it still applies.
LC: Really? That's interesting.
CF: I think it is full of good suggestions.
LC: Down to earth and common sense?
CF: Absolutely, and I wish today was more like that. I think the world would be better. I know I was very strict – maybe a little too strict.
LC: What are some of the differences that you've seen? Probably as a grandmother, too, you've seen how your grandchildren were raised and now a great grandchild...
CF: I guess I feel like things are "wants" now, more than "needs". I don't remember that there was any whining going on in our house because we didn't tolerate that. The outside world now dictates what kids think they need. Our grandchildren do not whine or beg. They are not short of "fun" toys or "wants".
LC: Look at television, too, and so much advertising is geared toward kids. Talk a little bit about the first television set that you guys got.
CF: Oh that was big stuff. We were living in Iowa and Don's relatives in Albert Lea had gotten a TV and they thought we should have one. Of course we didn't know what TV was until we went there and saw theirs. I do remember when we first got ours, which was black and white, of course, and it was a big deal. I wish I knew how much it cost at that time.
LC: How big was it – any idea?
CF: [Laughter] Not big. I don't know. I'd say ten inches. The reception was grainy and poor but we had TV – unreliable TV.
LC: [Laughter] What were your favorite shows to watch in those early years when you first got your TV? Do you remember? Jack Benny or…
CF: I don't remember what shows were on. I suppose at that time I was probably a TV person, but I'm really not a TV person so I couldn't tell you what was on. We had limited stations in Algona and poor reception. We had an antenna on our roof.
LC: Were you excited, though, to get it, the first TV?
CF: Oh, I think so. Yes. I think so. As I remember, at that time we could not afford carpeting. We had hardwood floors, the floor was nice but it was a wood floor, and now we had this TV and I thought, "Ugly."
LC: [Laughter]
CF: Surely we must be able to have carpeting. I think I remember more getting carpeting than I do getting a TV.
LC: Oh, funny!
CF: Gray curlicue carpet.
LC: Can you think of other appliances that were really important to you to get? Washer? Dryer?
CF: I remember when we got a washer and dryer.
LC: Did you go to the Laundromat before that?
CF: No we didn't. What did we have?
LC: A wringer?
CF: Yes, we had a wringer. Then we got a Bendix – front opening Bendix, I remember.
LC: Did you have kids at the time that you got the washer?
CF: I think so. We had Linda.
LC: So it was a big relief, probably, to have a good washer.
CF: I guess so. I remember I would use too much soap and suds oozed out on the floor – the cement basement floor.
LC: Did you get the dryer at the same time as the washer?
CF: No, I don't think we got the dryer at the same time, because it seems like I remember hanging clothes outside or on lines in the basement. Linda was a baby and I hung endless diapers outside. No, we didn't have a dryer right away.
LC: Can you think of other things that were really useful appliances and things?
CF: We did have an ice Box and graduated to a refrigerator when I was growing up. That was a big convenience for my mother.
LC: Did your family ever take vacations together?
CF: No, we didn't. My folks and Don and I would go to the lake sometimes together. We didn't own a cabin – we rented. This would be more when Linda and John were young. We did do that. I think because we were very fond of the relatives in Albert Lea and it was only eighty miles or whatever, and that was a trip for us to go there. They lived on Fountain Lake. The Minneapolis relatives came there and we came up from Iowa. So it was just a real family reunion kind of thing. It was very good.
LC: Did you go for a weekend or did you stay for a week?
CF: Not a week, but we'd go for a weekend. We'd sleep on the floor on blankets. We loved it. Now when our daughter Jane and Dan come with their kids, I'm thinking, "Well you know, they can sleep on the floor." Well! "FLOOR?! How in the world can you talk like that?"
LC: [Laughter] There's one difference, isn't there, between…?
CF: I think, "Oh my gosh, we slept on the floor half the time."
LC: And then they're probably happy memories too.
CF: Absolutely! You know when I think about it, the floor is wood and we probably just had a blanket across us. I didn't think that was terrible. We would recall events and laugh and laugh. We had our own brand of humor.
LC: What kind of car did you guys drive in those days?
CF: Always a Chevy – it had to be a Chevy.
LC: Did you drive, too, or was it just Don?
CF: When I was still at home with my parents, I started to drive at sixteen or younger, I suppose. I don't remember what age but it would be about then. No formal lessons. My Dad showed me how and I learned by doing. We had to shift in those days. That was a real relief for my family because my dad was managing the creamery and delivering milk and cream to people in town, and then when I could drive, I could be the deliverer. Of course I thought it was great because then I could be the driver. So I do remember driving.
LC: Can you think of anything else you'd like to share? Do you have anything else on your list there?
CF: What do I have on my list? Oh, piano lessons.
LC: Oh do you want to talk about that?
CF: Well, not particularly. [Laughter]
LC: [Laughter]
CF: We all had piano lessons. My mother was the church organist, but she was not our teacher. We had a big – I don't know if you even know what a big old piano is. BIG!
LC: [Laughter]
CF: We had a big piano and we took piano lessons. We each had to practice about a half hour. None of us was very good. We didn't take lessons very long. We probably did not practice and lessons were a waste of money.
On Saturday nights they had a free movie uptown and we would go to that. That was a big deal. We would always get a nickel.
LC: Was this when you were a kid?
CF: Yes. We would get a nickel every Saturday as spending money, and it seems to me it bought a lot.
LC: Candy or…?
CF: Oh, of course. It seems to me it just took us forever to figure out five things that you could buy.
LC: What were your favorite treats?
CF: I wish I could remember. Licorice had to be part of it, and "Walnettos" for sure. I don't know, but that nickel went really far.
LC: Penny candy or…
CF: Penny candy, of course. I think a bottle of pop was a nickel. We had to choose to buy one bottle of pop or five pieces of candy. Just think! Five pieces of candy for one nickel!
LC: Did you get ice cream when you were kids? Did you go out and have ice cream?
CF: Not very often. That was a very big treat. A Sunday special treat. A cone was probably a nickel or a dime, but after all there were five of us.
LC: Your dad worked at creamery...! You must've had…! [Laughter]
CF: There was no ice cream at the creamery. No, there was no ice cream there. When my dad was managing the creamery, one job that we did – you know the paper that comes on a pound of butter – we did that.
LC: Oh, you're kidding. You wrapped the butter?
CF: We wrapped the butter.
LC: Wow!
CF: That was a very important thing. We had to be sure there was no hair loose to get on the butter. We covered our head with a creamery hat. A must! Oh, mercy! We did it in the freezer and it was colder than sin in there, but we wrapped butter in the freezer.
LC: Did you get paid for doing that work?
CF: No.
LC: You just pitched in as a family member.
CF: I don't even know that it was discussed. It probably went with our nickel. You know it was just what you do. I don't remember that it was a chore or anything it was just something – we probably thought it was fun. There was always something to laugh about.
LC: Do you remember the games you liked to play as a kid?
CF: "Pom Pom Pull Away" and "Run Sheep Run".
LC: Were there a lot of kids in your neighborhood, growing up?
CF: We would gather at the schoolyard and I'd say there were probably fifteen kids that would come there. We were very envious, the rest of us, of my sister Mavis (older by two years) because she was allowed to go farther from home. Of course we looked forward to being able to go as far as she could walk. We were not allowed to go uptown. Men sat on this bench. In my today's mind they were harmless, but we were not to be uptown. That was off-limits. We could cross the busy highway to go to school but we couldn't go uptown. [Laughter]
LC: [Laughter] And you've never forgiven your parents, have you?
CF: That's right. I must talk to my mother about that. [Laughter]
LC: Did you have a bike when you were a girl?
CF: No and Yes. We did not have a bike. Well...a friend of ours delivered papers and he had a bike. So we loved it when we could deliver his papers and then we could use his bike. Then we finally got an old broken down bike and we thought that was OK.
LC: You shared it.
CF: Yes. Five of us.
LC: What other things do you have on your list? I'm distracting you now. [Laughter]
CF: The free movie. I did tell you grade school was grades one through eight in Watson and then we took the bus to Monte for high school. That was kind of embarrassing, because we didn't like getting off a bus like we lived in the sticks. Then having to get off the bus at school, probably in front of "city" friends. I remember that was humiliating.
LC: Was it a big adjustment for you when you had to go to school in Montevideo? Getting to know new kids and…
CF: At first it was, yes, because that was junior high and we were used to our own little group. Yes I remember it was a little bit hard. I was quite shy and the boys sitting next to me loved to tease me. I blushed a lot.
LC: Did you?
CF: I did a lot of babysitting at twenty-five cents an hour. I started at ten cents and then I got twenty-five. I did a lot of babysitting.
LC: Did you save your money from those kinds of jobs?
CF: You know, I don't know what I did with that money. I don't recall. Well, I saved it for sure because everybody in the family made fun of me for never spending anything. So obviously I saved it. But I did a lot of babysitting. I liked it, though; I really liked it. Sometimes my friend, Valerie, and I would each have a baby in a stroller and we'd walk all over town. We pretended we were the mothers. We were doing it for fun, not pay. We were about 12 years old.
LC: Did you like to go dancing when you were young? You mentioned that you enjoy concerts and music.
CF: We could not go dancing with groups of kids. I do remember my folks went to dances in Watson. My dad would let us come to the dance the first half hour, and he would dance with us and taught us to polka and waltz. We really liked to dance and he was a good dancer, and he was good about letting us come for a little while. We had a big outdoor porch at home. We would turn up the music on the radio and dance and dance. My sister Dolores and I were the dancers.
I did take a sign language course, and…
LC: Oh, you did?
CF: It's probably three or four years ago now and I thought it was so wonderful that I decided I was going to teach sign language. I was going to continue to learn more and hopefully teach it some day because I just thought it was such a wonderful knowledge to have. I liked it, but I fizzled out. I didn't go beyond that.
LC: That was recent, though.
CF: Yes, you know, like four years ago or so. I did think that was really, really good. I have had no occasion to use it.
LC: Do you enjoy taking classes and things from Community Ed or…
CF: Yes, I've taken a lot of Community Ed classes.
LC: That's neat.
CF: When the list comes out I look for what I'm going to go to. I do, I enjoy classes.
LC: So you really keep active.
CF: I would say so.
LC: That's good. Well, thanks again, very much. This has been fun!
CF: Well, you're welcome, even though I don't like talking about myself.